levy120
Guardian
Muushuuuu~
currently working on: fanfic overload and reviews
Posts: 945
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Post by levy120 on Jan 3, 2010 0:09:59 GMT -5
Why OF COURSE NOT! If anything he'd be a Gary Stu, right?
Alright xD
So... the sequel says clearly "No" But what about the first movie?
I feel that Shang definitely shows some Suish traits... He's talented, he looks like a pin-up guy, and of COURSE he's the son of the General. And he gets the girl as well ;D
And you cannot deny that he feels good with his 'skills', especially during the sequence of "I'll make a man out of you"
I think his fail-skills for women and Shan-Yu only help him a bit, if you look at the balance of Pro and Contra.
But we love him, don't we? ~
So is Shang a Mary Sue Gary Stu? And if he is ~ is the he example how to do it well?
Honestly, I do believe in character development of Sues and that good writing can make them good characters. I can't stand people who pull down characters for their suish traits, when it's clear that they're still developing. Suish traits are the spice, not the finished meal ~ also Hardcore!Anti-Sues are just plain boring most of the time. Now given the fact that there are a lot of (other?) CANON Sues in other fandoms (e.g. Kagome (Inuyasha) or Yuki (Vampire Knight)), do you think Shang might have potential to join them? Why?
Or don't you think like this at all? ;D
NOW BATTLE 3 - 2 - 1 - DING
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Post by rocketharuka on Jan 3, 2010 8:42:49 GMT -5
Now I understand why I don't like so much Shang...is so "perfect". Gary Stu, yes XD
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Chester
Fuzzball
Pain in the neck
^ Pretty Face ^
Posts: 57
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Post by Chester on Jan 7, 2010 15:30:19 GMT -5
Are you NUTS? Shang is the perfect guarded one, there is no way he could represent anything bad... whatever it is you're talking about anyway!
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araeph
Specter
TEH MASTER
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Post by araeph on Jan 8, 2010 0:49:56 GMT -5
*flexes muscles*
It has been my hobby to mock and slay Mary Sues for the past six years. I've come to know Sues and Stus pretty well. Shang, fortunately, is not among them.
ONTO ROUND ONE!
What is a Sue/Stu?
There are several definitions of what a Mary Sue is, including my own. To give you a sample:
PotCSues
Mary Sue appreciation site:
The Fanfiction Glossary
These definitions would seem to vary widely, except for three very important points, which I will distill for you. In all cases:
1) The author has a close connection to the character 2) This love for or identification with said character causes the author to set that character above whatever aspects of rules and realism the author finds undesirable. 3) The character warps the story reality so that it will revolve around him/her
If we can agree that the above three points are the real defining characteristics of a Mary Sue, then we can proceed to:
Does Shang's character fit Point 1?
Absolutely. As a hero in Mulan, he is a character with whom the creators obviously empathize, and whom (leaving aside the sequel) they obviously respect. This is shown in their portrayal of Shang as someone who is fairly intelligent, deeply loyal, skilled in battle, and an able commander. Also, the protagonist likes and respects him.
Does Shang's character fit into Point 2?
Is Shang a relatively realistic representation of what a 20ish man from a military family in Ancient China would be like? This is tricky, because Disney (as we know) takes a lot of liberty with its historical accuracy in this movie. So, let's take a look at his merits objectively.
a) Strength b) Fighting skill c) Intelligence d) Loyalty to his family e) Good looks
These are important to any Marty Stu, and Li Shang has them all. Ahh, but wait. Does he have these traits in unrealistic proportions?
With regards to strength and skill, Shang is shown to be quite capable of holding his own in a fight. He is number one in his class. He can improvise and keep command of his men in a crisis. His martial arts are excellent.
He also gets knocked down once and knocked out twice in a relatively short span of time. He loses his fight with Shan Yu. His "prize," the sword of Shan Yu, gets stolen from him and given in the end to Mulan. (This is particularly damaging to the Sue-o-meter. Also, if your Stu gets knocked flat on his butt by a girl with much less strength and experience, you need to get yourself a new Stu.) Finally, Shang does not earn the right to march into battle; Chi Fu is tricked into letting him and his men fight. Essentially, the general didn't think Shang and his trainees were good enough to have on the front lines.
So, is this what we could realistically expect from a general's son? I would say...yes.
c) Intelligence. I would have to say that Shang is definitely not stupid, but he's not a genius, either. When faced with a tactical decision, Shang follows his training. He follows it well, but he shows little promise of expanding beyond the army field manual. He lacks true ingenuity, true creativity. While his faculties stand out in contrast to the Gang of Three, mentally he is no match for Mulan, Shan Yu, the Emperor, or even Fa Zhou. He is no foot soldier; neither is he a master chessman. Again, considering his background, he is pretty much what you'd expect him to be.
d) Shang is loyal to a fault in terms of trying to live up to his father's expectations. It is, however, a fault as well as a strength, because he finds it very hard to stray from that path (more on that later).
e) The last one is extremely subjective, but since there are so many Shang fangirls out there, I will kowtow to them and say that Shang is pretty much a pin-up guy. But in response to Levy, that he "gets" the girl...I would beg to differ that the girl "gets" him.
Now, for counterbalance, let us count Shang's flaws. With apologies to the good captain, I think we can agree that he is:
a) Judgmental b) Hot-tempered c) Proud d) Stiff e) Sexist f) Not so smooth with the ladies
All of which can be seen in his reaction to Mulan, incidentally.
a=Shang is Judgmental) is apparent in that more than once, he blames Mulan for things that are not her fault. Starting the camp fight--does he give her a chance to defend herself? Setting off the rocket--is she allowed to explain? When Mulan's identity is discovered, she even says, "I can explain!" And what does Shang do to the woman who just saved his life? He walks right out of the tent without hearing her out!
b=Shang is hot-tempered) Look out when Shang is angry! He and his trainees get off to a bad start, and boy does he make them pay for it! While his strict methods of discipline make him a good captain, he isn't portrayed as being nice, to the point of sometimes being unnecessarily harsh. At the end of the movie, Shang is just about ready to throttle Chi Fu in front of the Emperor himself. We love him for doing it, but we do so because it shows a crack in his veneer.
c=Shang is proud) This is a partner to a), but is in fact much more damaging. The most serious example of this is Shang allowing his personal pride to cloud his judgment. When Mulan comes back to warn Shang and the others about the return of the Huns, Shang's response is nothing short of churlish. Go home, you don't belong here, why should I trust you? And yet when Shang stands before the Emperor, you can see him looking left and right suspiciously. Why? Because he believes that the Huns really are in the city! He knew Mulan was right the whole time he was shunning her and putting her down! And the only reason he didn't acknowledge it was that his pride had been hurt. That is a flaw, it is a deep flaw, and it's almost enough to make him unlikable. Fortunately, he is allowed to change for the better.
d=Shang is stiff) is painfully apparent in Shang's status as a loner. In the movie, this does not necessarily make Shang cooler or more heroic. That darned military training, the same thing that gives Shang all of the merits discussed above, comes back to bite him on the social scene. Unlike the Marty Stu, who is proudly silhouetted straight and tall against sunsets and mountains, Shang's moments of aloneness--looking down on the training camp, calling his father by name instead of rank, mourning his father's death--are shown to be his moments of greatest vulnerability. He can command his men, yes, but they don't idolize him, and he doesn't win their affection--that's Mulan's job. It is only near the end, when he joins the group in climbing the palace pillars, that he really becomes a member of the group.
e=Shang is sexist) Shang's song "Be a Man" is one of the most sexist parts of the whole movie. In the beginning, he is almost as misogynistic as Chi-Fu! "Did they send me daughters...instead of sons? You're a spineless, pale, pathetic lot...somehow, I'll make a man out of you!" Even the Gang of Three's gooey fantasies about women don't quite compare. And notice that while the Gang of Three are willing to forgive Mulan almost as soon as her secret is revealed, Shang is much more reluctant to do so. He nearly kills her, then abandons her in the mountains, when the only thing she had done was save her father from the same exact fate that awaited Shang's own father! Yes, he does spare her life...but since Mulan first saved his life and the lives of his men, it doesn't make him good; it makes him fair at best, ungrateful at worst.
You could argue that Shang sheds a good deal of his sexism by the end of Mulan. But how does that make him a Marty Stu? If anything, it counts for him being really human...he wasn't "perfect" from the get-go, and had some growing up to do during the movie. Kind of like all the rest of the cast, really.
F=Shang is no Don Juan)
"You fight good." "Uh, you forgot your helment. Well, well, it's actually, uh, your helmet, isn't it, I mean..."
Shang may be handsome, but he never uses that in any way to get what he wants. Nor does Mulan's attraction to him impair her ability to think and act.
Which leads nicely into...
Does Shang fit into Point 3?
And here is where Shang's status as a Marty Stu really begins to take a dive. In no way, shape or form is he the center of the story, nor does he start to pull the story away from Mulan. In fact, the creators have gone out of their way not to make him the center of attention. To whit:
a) Mulan always remains the most complex, interesting character, and the story doesn't suddenly start to drift Shang's way once he appears. His character development is there to enrich Mulan's, not the other way around. b) Mulan's rationality is shown to be superior to Shang's. c) It is the physician, not Shang, who discovers Mulan's identity (a conscious choice, according to the writers' commentary, which means that they refused to make Mulan into a sex object for Shang's benefit). d) He did not--and could not--defeat the main antagonist. e) He absolutely could not have won the war. Without Mulan, he would be dead several times over. f) Shang is not Mulan's confidant. There is only a relatively short space in the movie where they trust each other. Mulan confides most in Mushu. g) His relationship with the protagonist is secondary in nature. What do I mean by that? Contrary to what the sequel shows, it is Mulan's relationship with her father that is the most important part of the movie. Shang doesn't motivate Mulan to ride to war. Shang doesn't encourage her to stay in camp--he tries to send her away! And Shang doesn't even get romantic resolution with Mulan. Mulan gets character resolution with her father, and that is the film's real ending, whatever 98 Degrees might say. This is even more important when you consider that '90s Disney made almost every feature animation a love story above all. You could argue that Prince Eric is a Stu, for this and many other reasons. Li Shang? Not so much.
______
Hope you didn't fall asleep during my dissertation epic post! This subject is just something I spend a lot of time thinking about.
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levy120
Guardian
Muushuuuu~
currently working on: fanfic overload and reviews
Posts: 945
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Post by levy120 on Jan 9, 2010 13:26:06 GMT -5
I will not deny that I squealed %D
And yeah it is in fact Shang's subtleness that might save him there - but, would that mean that a well written IC Shang in a fanfic that is just about him would make him a Sue? ~ Hypothetically.
Point 3 surely is one of the most annoying traits of a classic Sue, but then again, there are a lot of main characters who are Sues and Stus as well and they don't have to take over the story because in fact it all DOES resolve around them already, so I really dunno if this rule applies to all of them likewise. In fact I think that every character deserves its own little individual characterisation, just like your example here.
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araeph
Specter
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Post by araeph on Jan 18, 2010 20:18:48 GMT -5
I will not deny that I squealed %D And yeah it is in fact Shang's subtleness that might save him there - but, would that mean that a well written IC Shang in a fanfic that is just about him would make him a Sue? ~ Hypothetically. You know, that depends on the kind of fanfic you're writing. If you're writing a fanfic about Shang's Academy days, then of course it's going to revolve around him. But since its purpose is to explore his character, and not just imitate the movie per se, then it wouldn't make him a Sue. Provided, of course, that the author kept him in character. HOWEVER, if you wrote a fanfic that was just supposed to be a sequel to "Mulan," only it ended up being all about Shang and how perfect he was... then it would be a Suefic. I put in Point 3 because I'm so used to dealing with fanfic Sues. Maybe it should stipulate that it only applies to original characters or to canon characters who aren't main characters. Although there are canon Sues who are main characters who you could argue stole the main plot away from the minor characters. For example, the Icewind Dale Trilogy was originally supposed to be about Wulfgar. Instead, it ended up being about Drizzt Do'Urden and his amazing violet eyes/cute animal friend/magical weapons/l33t fighting skillz/.
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levy120
Guardian
Muushuuuu~
currently working on: fanfic overload and reviews
Posts: 945
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Post by levy120 on Jan 19, 2010 2:46:48 GMT -5
For example, the Icewind Dale Trilogy was originally supposed to be about Wulfgar. Instead, it ended up being about Drizzt Do'Urden and his amazing violet eyes/cute animal friend/magical weapons/l33t fighting skillz/. Hm... I have no idea what THAT is (seems to be a game after a quick google ~), but I can't help in seeing the PRINCESSES from Mulan 2 for this argument ~
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araeph
Specter
TEH MASTER
Posts: 55
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Post by araeph on Jan 31, 2010 19:50:55 GMT -5
For example, the Icewind Dale Trilogy was originally supposed to be about Wulfgar. Instead, it ended up being about Drizzt Do'Urden and his amazing violet eyes/cute animal friend/magical weapons/l33t fighting skillz/. Hm... I have no idea what THAT is (seems to be a game after a quick google ~), but I can't help in seeing the PRINCESSES from Mulan 2 for this argument ~ You are so right. I really wanted to like them, too, but the fact that they effectively ruined the second movie kind of put a damper on things.
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eline
Imagination
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Post by eline on Aug 20, 2010 4:06:29 GMT -5
You should hear the dutch version-.- One of the lines is:Now you just look like some weak woman.
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